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Materials and Synthesis

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Materials and Synthesis

Post by Seeker of Carnage on Tue May 19, 2015 7:24 pm

Alright, so, we have a new-ish stat called Synthesis that is meant for creating items. These can be magical, mechanical, etc. Special weapons unique to the creator. What can empower this is the idea of special materials. How I think of materials is by finding a special material, you can create a weapon with a natural power outside of what you add. For example, find a blaze shard in Agrabah and you can grant a weapon a natural power over fire (flaming sword usually). This may take effort, but in the end, that ability is from the material itself and NOT one of the X you can add. It may be small for lesser material, but for more complex or rare material it can pay off. Take a very-very special material called Nethicite for example. If you somehow found that, or if it was a compound of other material, it could grant anti-magic properties, For those who want to do things differently and not use magic, that's a great idea. Of course, it would just lock MP-related things from yourself like its origin game as well as grant reasonable anti-magic properties either established by Lore and Mechanics staff or you if they allow it.

Another example is utilizing something akin to Aether to create a naturally free-forming weapon without the use of magic. It'd be mechanical, and you can synthesize a controller for it without magic. There is the idea of special, super-rare materials/compounds only available through effort and that can encourage many things. For one, we can see more exploration. Another thing is the benefit you, as members, receive from doing the exploration given you had put forth the effort. The tricky part is the difficulty, because things like Nethicite are SUPER rare, and maybe the level of material can affect how much of the item's composition it takes up. I.e. shards can't make a sword, but a few stones could possibly. Maybe we don't have to limit it to simple enchantments naturally given, maybe it can lead to mechanical and technological developments. But to summarize this:

-Materials could be found that have their own natural abilities
-This encourages synthesis and exploration while benefiting the members who invest in synthesis and exploration
-There could be a cap on combined materials for "freebie" abilities, due to using the material's innate ability
-The materials can put people out of one world, by spreading the resources across the worlds according to the theme/element/whatever
-This grants the existence of special material outside of orichalcum that anyone can find and it isn't up to one person to establish its existence as well as not having the trivial process of "this is mine and only I will have it" and proceeding arguments if those were to happen (I mean come on, it;'s the age-old argument between adults and kids).
-This grants the freedom of not having to invest in magic, possibly. Other ways to do things without using magical means, either partially or entirely.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Harlow on Tue May 19, 2015 7:41 pm

These materials could be added to Raids as rewards, and tournaments as prizes, but adding a component solely to benefit synthesis unbalances the statistic. There are couple ways to resolve this.

-These materials can be used immediately as a spell, regardless the tier of magic the user has.
-The user can construct of spell of the same element, but you'd be proficient in casting the spell, even if it isn't one of your mastered elements.

Adding those two clauses benefits all uses of magic. Also, each material component would get 1 use only. This means people constantly have to search for materials.

If people are searching for something, we could have a roll of die to see if they find anything in the world. If they do, we roll the die to see what element it is aligned to, as long as it makes sense within the area. Then, a final roll to see how rare it is. Hypothetically, there's 5 tiers of rarity. A t5 component can give you something powerful without other abilities needed, but you can still achieve the same level of ability by collecting enough components and pooling them all together.

To clarify,
-If we can properly balance it, this is a good idea to implement. Otherwise, it's too niche for synthesis.
-Tournaments and Raids shouldn't be the only way to get these material components. That was just another way to add stake without upsetting the balance of power, e.g., soulbound weapons.
-The more you search in the topic, the closer you should get to finding material components, but the reason I implemented die was to leave it to chance, opposed to a based-on-effort-opinion, which varies from person to person. A more defined system would keep things fair.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Seeker of Carnage on Tue May 19, 2015 8:01 pm

I would definitely not want a one-use synthesis material, however spell-containers using this dynamic could do that and maintain balance. Of course, how much it would unbalance the stats as you say has yet to be determined as we haven't seen how synthesis stands up against magic in application.

And I get the lack of RP sample, however it depends on how people prefer it. If something were to be implemented, is has to interest them in a way that they'll do that and some might not like dice roles. Maybe a d20 method instead of six-sides where people can use their synthesis stat or some other resource to boost their chances? 19-20 would be like, super duper rare stuff. Idk, however I did think of ways to use magicite which were used for summons in FF. We could alter them to use them for various magic-related things, as well as summons, and those can be used as rewards or you can have a general material that can take in a spell and have X amount of charges per topic. People might not want to CONSTANTLY find material, however a topic every now and then would be nice.

What you've suggested is the magical simulation route, while I implied more than just that. Personally, I've wanted to see what it's like to be anti-magic and still be effective in combat. With magic, you can do outrageous things in later tier, so I'm not sure at what point synthesis becomes more powerful or equal to it.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Harlow on Tue May 19, 2015 8:23 pm

No, it doesn't keep balance. If spell containers get one use, but a synth user can suddenly apply it the ability to multiple items arsenal, synth users inherently benefit.

Also, this would count towards the overall limit of the weapon, but gives you the option to retrieve abilities you normally could not find, because your lack of slots or lack of contacts with the abilities you're looking for.

This is applied the same way to mages, who might want to learn a spell outside their mastery, but have full benefit of it. Both stats are skilled based, so having material components to learn from should operate similarly. Otherwise, your bias for synthesis will unbalance the system.

The d20 system, which I had in mind, would be handled by staff. The users would simply be updated on what they did or did not find. All it does it make 3 rolls, and the more you search, the more bonuses you'd get to actually finding something (although, it does not increase the rarity of the object).

I don't see how anyone would rather do an RP sample to get rejected for not meeting and individuals requirements. I'm not saying you don't RP to find the components, I'm saying you don't send an RP sample akin Keyblade and Drives. Searching is inherently RP intensive and required.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Seeker of Carnage on Tue May 19, 2015 8:59 pm

It all depends on the person. However, someone might feel shafted when they put in the effort. Also, you are missing the point of the materials NOT just for the super-special ones. This integrates using more normal materials from KH into weapons and not just making the same weapon but with a different name for the material. I'm not talking infinite uses of firaga from a weapon, I'm talking minor to major, constant flame enchantments without making it an enchantment (however, I don't think you'd be able to stack it for 2x major if you tried enhancing it).

Also, I still have yet to see the comparison between a synth user and someone who can conjure a massive, devastating spell at tier 5. You are detracting from the idea, and making the idea of materials useless in my opinion by making it count towards the limit of the weapon as well as limiting it to one use for the material's ability. If a material has a natural ability, the things you add to the weapon are what you add and the material has its own natural contribution if you decide to use that material. I see what you mean by how bad it sounds to have infinite use of something, however I don't think you and I mean the same thing with abilities. There are already standards for using spells in weapons, but I'm talking complimentary things that relate to the metal or material itself.

Also, even if synth users benefit most from this, it is an alternative to the capabilities granted by spells. I'm not sure exactly what you can do with Tier 5 Synthesis at tier 5, as it has been said that synthesis is relative to character tier so it differs between the whole character tiers. There is also the drawback of having to develop technologies, which takes more time than developing powerful magics. This suggestion IS about empowering synthesis in a way that lets it become a healthy alternative to magic as magic, in a way, has more ways it can be used currently. Maybe in the future synthesis will reach a basic point of equal variety, at least partially, however based on what I've learned about technological advancements, most things are magic + synth and not mechanical or tech-based. Of course risk can be added to the reward by having things become more dangerous as one gets closer to a possible area for higher-quality material.

As I said, a blaze shard should be able to give a minor flame enchantment of some sort to a weapon naturally BEFORE applying synthesis. However, I would have no qualms for more in depth abilities taking a slot as they would be things like free-forming metal w/o magic, magical absorption (the sacrifice with that would be no magical enhancement and leaving it to a nearly if not purely mechanical weapon if mechanics are used). Most mages are savants, but this is something that requires time and effort and discovery rather than "whoops I have a comet spell".

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Harlow on Tue May 19, 2015 10:18 pm

Synthesis has just as much variety. You can theoretically create another Space Paranoids from scratch with T5 synth, should you put the time and effort. Just because you haven't seen it utilized yet, doesn't mean it isn't powerful in its own right.

From a blaze shard, the minor flame enchantment on an item would take a slot, because if it's powerful enough to affect the world, it takes a slot. If not, it's just aesthetic. How are you using it BEFORE applying synthesis? It just keeps it a shard. Otherwise, you're applying it to a weapon for that ability. The way you're trying to implement it, as I understand it, you're lowering the established power scale of the site.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Seeker of Carnage on Tue May 19, 2015 10:27 pm

The way I'm trying to explain it as is the synthesis slots are something you add to it, while the material has its own natural properties that when left to remain, remain active. It's supposed to be a benefit of actually finding these materials. The point of this exploration and discovery of these materials is to make them useful, not something you can do without them if there is practically no difference. While that leaves only rare stuff to be implemented, which can be fine to a degree, that makes practically everything else useless. Also, no you cannot make a Space Paranoids from scratch with just time and effort as I was told specifically by staff that takes A LOT of time and A LOT of effort because of the lack of technological resources to do so in this present time. Thus making it extremely difficult because everything someone does has to be confirmed as it has been said that the community must agree to such things.

A weapon is one thing, a Space Paranoids-like creation is another. I don't see where it says I'm lowering the power scale, as I am just trying to offer an alternative to magic as well as benefits to taking the time and effort to finding specific material instead of just making the weapon out of nowhere and using your slots.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Harlow on Wed May 20, 2015 2:55 am

The way you want to implement this feature subverts the intended balance of the system. There is little incentive to apply your suggestion, when it only benefits a niche type of character and provides a niche experience.

I'm not accusing you of openly attempting to lower the power scale. I'm stating that your suggestion -- aside opening up avenues for unslotted abuse -- weakens the synthesis statistic.

I'm not adamant about the one use proposal I made, as long as there is balance amongst the uses of materials. E.G., my examples, or a similar vein of idea, providing benefits to a variety of characters, not just synth users.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Game Master on Wed May 20, 2015 6:42 am

I am really enjoying this arguement, but I would like to interject on a somewhat pedantic note. Earlier, both of you seemed to agree that yes, Space Paranoids could be created with a lot of time and a lot of effort.

Harlow wrote:Synthesis has just as much variety. You can theoretically create another Space Paranoids from scratch with T5 synth, should you put the time and effort.

L'Oreal wrote:Also, no you cannot make a Space Paranoids from scratch with just time and effort as I was told specifically by staff that takes A LOT of time and A LOT of effort because of the lack of technological resources to do so in this present time.

Harlow is correct, and you were informed correctly. To make space paranoids, you'd have to build a few computers first, then some server units, then cables and other associated items with the project which would require a few pounds of gold and a few more pounds than that of copper, silver, palldium and platinum and if you're REALLY going for high powered, you want Beryllium Copper Wire. Those are the precious metal considerations, but that's not counting steel for the screws and aluminum for the heat sinks. You want extrusion for that. Then there is the silicon for the board that you'd need to press and layer with the precious metals. You'd need a plastic processor to make the PBC coating for the wire.

You'd either need to access, acquire, or build those machines. I feel like Radiant Garden might have those on standby, since they've already made the Grid and Space Paranoids. Theoretically the deep space fleet has similar capabilities.

But, yeah. You are both right. It would take a lot of time and effort to make one from scratch. Alternatively, you can just find characters with technology driven weapons, take those weapons and collect the boards, wires, and metals from them, and then expedite the process. You might even be able to acquire the circuit boards directly from the Deep Space Fleet without any searching at all, just bargaining. They have to keep their systems maintained, so no doubt they have the technology to create one in storage.

Anyway, just my two bits.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Harlow on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:06 am

We should still implement this. Since spells and summons can exceed the natural cap, these shards should be able to, as long as there is a synth cap(beyond base) on how many abilities can be added onto a weapon.

We just need to find a way to implement it, if the community's open to the idea.

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Re: Materials and Synthesis

Post by Jensen on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:12 am

Well, here's how it can be implemented:

-Max Cap. of one free ability from a material, complexity based on the tier of material (no, not like our stat tiers, like the tiers from KH2 which went Shard -> Crystal -> Stone or something like that)
-Special materials make up for their difficulty to find by being the most complex, versatile, what-have-you. So nethicite has the condition of silencing the user, however it is the ultimate source of magic resistance in FFXII. But, for the more common materials, you'd need a higher quantity to use higher-level material. Like for example, you'd need 2-3 more successful searches to find a Blaze Stone rather than a Blaze Shard, or a much more in depth and/or higher roll requirement to get this material.
-Synth can modify roll requirements somehow, since those into synth have the knowledge to know what they are looking for and the environments the materials rest in normally.
-You can mix and match for abilities you normally don't have the means to create yourself, mechanically or magically, however anything beyond the initial free slot takes a slot that your synth allows.

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