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Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

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Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Game Master on Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:33 am

For those of you who payed attention to the update, it goes without saying what I'm about to restate. For the rest of you, Heartless are facing a reworking that will result in a minimum of two alternate races, with as time wears on a very possible third that I am exploring. I will be discussing all three here, and I would like opinions to help flesh out what these three races will look like in their finished state. It needs to be noted that not every idea can be included, and some will be ultimately discarded. Don't take this as a personal affront. We can't do every single thing right off the bat.

So, the three races. The first two are basic races that can be accessed at the beginning. These are Pureblood Heartless and Emblem Heartless.


Pureblood Heartless are esoteric beings of darkness. While they are named Heartless, this is actually a misnomer. Heartless are hearts manifesting their darkness in a physical form, but due to their emotionless behavior were dubbed Heartless. These Heartless are most commonly encountered in the Realm of Darkness or areas close to darkness. At present, the following traits are planned for Pureblood Heartless:


  • They an use Corridors of Darkness passively
  • They are unaffected by abilities that play off of emotions
  • They drain Darkness damage for Health
  • They can possess inanimate objects and modify their form to suit their needs
  • Their Heart Element must be Darkness
  • They can track Keyblades across all worlds passively
  • When in areas of darkness, they gain a severe power increase
  • All of their spells are augmented with Darkness passively
  • Unless destroyed by a Keyblade, Heartless revive as though they have immortality
  • A Pureblood Heartless of significant power is only created by a being with the Heart Element of Darkness who loses their Heart. When this is the case, it retains the original being's character tier, stat points, and applicable items such as Keyblade and World Leader status.
  • They must choose one less element than normal, but one of the elements they can choose may be a Combination element without any prerequisites.
  • Pureblood Heartless can control Heartless as though they are effectively one character tier higher
  • They can determine a person's character tier by sensing their heart



Emblem Heartless are esoteric beings of darkness. They are artificially created shells of darkness that are based on the behavior of true Heartless. They are more diverse than standard Pureblood forms, coming in a variety of shapes and colors based on the world they inhabit. These are the Heartless most commonly encountered in the Realm of Light, as this was the Realm in which they were created. The following traits are planned for Emblem Heartless:


  • They can use Corridors of Darkness passively
  • They can choose any of their four elements to be drained for Health instead of receiving damage.
  • Their Heart element must be Darkness
  • They can track Keyblades passively across all worlds
  • When they capture Hearts, they do not release them into the Realm of Darkness. Instead they retain them inside of their bodies, and gain a slight increase to power for each Heart they hold.
  • All of their spells are augmented with Darkness
  • Unless destroyed by a Keyblade, they revive as though they have Immortality. However, all of their captured Hearts are lost.
  • Emblem Heartless are effectively one tier higher when controlling Heartless
  • They can determine a person's character tier by sensing their Heart.



Now, the third race is a prestige race, and still in concept stage. This race would be called "Seekers" in reference to Ansem. It's not fully developed yet, but what we have so far is as follows:


  • They an use Corridors of Darkness passively
  • They drain Darkness damage for Health
  • Their Heart Element must be Darkness
  • They can choose three combination elements to be their primaries instead of standard primal or advanced elements
  • They can track Keyblades across all worlds passively
  • When in areas of darkness, they gain a severe power increase
  • When Seekers capture Hearts, they do not release them into the Realm of Darkness. Instead they retain them inside of their bodies, and gain a slight increase to power for each Heart they hold.
  • All of their spells are augmented with Darkness passively
  • Unless destroyed by a Keyblade, Seekers revive as though they have immortality
  • A Seeker is created when a being with significant power and Darkness in their Heart willingly forfeit their Hearts to the darkness. At tier three, a character who willingly succumbs to the Darkness becomes a Seeker and will retain all of their Skill Trees and Keyblades.
  • Seekers can control Heartless as though they are effectively one character tier higher than they truly are.
  • They can determine a person's character tier by sensing their heart.




These are not the final products, but they are fairly close. What I want to ask is what your thoughts, as a community, are on these? I've edited in the traits that Lenny point out I've missed. I will be quoting Ophelia in the following post.

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Game Master on Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:38 am

Well uhhhh

Not here to argue canon as I'm more interested in seeing/playing out how things work out for heartless here I guess I'll post an opinion on what I think of the changes... They're going to effect my character sooooo

PUREBLOOD HEARTLESS:

They can use Corridors of Darkness passively - ✔
They are unaffected by abilities that play off of emotions - ✔
They drain Darkness damage for Health - *
Their Heart Element must be Darkness - ✔
They can track Keyblades across all worlds passively - ✔
When in areas of darkness, they gain a severe power increase - ✔
All of their spells are augmented with Darkness passively - ✔
Unless destroyed by a Keyblade, Heartless revive as though they have immortality - ✔
A Pureblood Heartless of significant power is only created by a being with the Heart Element of Darkness who loses their Heart. When this is the case, it retains the original being's character tier, stat points, and applicable items such as Keyblade and World Leader status. - *
They must choose one less element than normal, but one of the elements they can choose may be a Combination element without any prerequisites. - *
Pureblood Heartless can control Heartless as though they are effectively one character tier higher - ✔

*They drain Darkness damage for Health - I personally think this should go for all heartless as they are generally beings of darkness making them obviously more resistant to darkness but also gives them a bit of a stalemate against their own kind but an edge against darkness users who aren't heartless. (Possibly making those that use darkness as a Somebody want to succumb to the darkness, just a plot idea throwing things out there)

*A Pureblood Heartless of significant power is only created by a being with the Heart Element of Darkness who loses their Heart. When this is the case, it retains the original being's character tier, stat points, and applicable items such as Keyblade and World Leader status. - As other people are saying this should be justified. I also think maybe if their items and spells are light they are discarded or need to be remade into darkness??? Maybe????

*They must choose one less element than normal, but one of the elements they can choose may be a Combination element without any prerequisites. - Seems cool I guess but I just don't really get it or why this would happen?

EMBLEM HEARTLESS:

Well... I'm yet to finish all of the games and understand the story/canon completely and I have a feeling if I do... I probably still wont get it. BUT I enjoy the games and the universe so I'll still play it out and RP in the universe if I can Wink. ANYWAYS heres a list similar to the previous one...

They can use Corridors of Darkness passively - ✔
They can choose any of their four elements to be drained for Health instead of receiving damage. - Why not darkness? Why?
Their Heart element must be Darkness - ✔
They can track Keyblades passively across all worlds - ✔
When they capture Hearts, they do not release them into the Realm of Darkness. Instead they retain them inside of their bodies, and gain a slight increase to power for each Heart they hold. - ✔
All of their spells are augmented with Darkness - ✔
Unless destroyed by a Keyblade, they revive as though they have Immortality. However, all of their captured Hearts are lost. - ✔
Emblem Heartless are effectively one tier higher when controlling Heartless. - ✔

I can't comment much on the canon or whatever as I said I'm not really up to this part in the game. (Only just bought KH2.5 remastered) But yeah...... Opinions matter and what not...

As for Seeker's... Which I think myself and Lenny would fall under... I think?

I'm cool with the other stuff but I don't like the combination element idea.
I don't get why this would happen and I think it leaves us pretty limited... Like hazaar! I can make an avalanche... Also I can control wildfires but I can't control wind or fire on its own(well)?
Its kind of fun going through the elements and having to choose wisely as to whether or not I'd choose primals/advanced elements to make a combination element. Also it would suck to become a seeker from a somebody and have your elements changed just like that.

I think that's all that really bugs me about the changes... obviously because they effect me but whatever... Yeah.

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Game Master on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:04 am

So for Pureblood Heartless: the reason they have the esoteric drain on darkness alone is because of their origins as creatures of Darkness. They are literally described as esoteric beings in some media put out in Japan, and upon reviewing that I had decided that they would most logically have a drain effect. The reason Emblem Heartless get to choose is because they have multiple elements and have been shown to in some cases absorb elemental magic. I'm not entirely fond of giving them such a blanket drain effect, but I didn't want to entirely revoke it. I'm actually considering increasing the power of Seekers even further by letting them have Darkness as a drain and letting them choose an additional element.


Now, the justification for them Keeping their Tiers and abilities is that usually a person doesn't get weaker. If they retain their primary form, which it has been assumed that all playable characters who become Heartless will do, they keep what they've had as Somebodies in terms of abilities and spells. Why is this? Well, they don't loose access to those abilities. There is nothing that states Heartless can't use light elements- on the contrary, we see the Angelstar Heartless utilizing a form of light. To that end, I've blanketed all heartless with the ability to use light but always have that primary Heart element of Darkness.

To this end though, abilities will need to be re-approved. Pureblood Heartless will lack a minimum of one element that the precursor had. Those abilities will need to be adjusted in terms of cost, power, cool down, or any combination of the three. As for Keyblades, the Heart remains chosen. I've decided that, given the difficult of acquiring a Keyblade on site, if you get a Keyblade, you should keep it. We can look towards the main canon for examples, but I would prefer to limit that practice. And for the world leader tree, the world reached out to that individual specifically. It would likely still have them as it's chosen until they did something unforgivable. However, the nobody would not retain this normally, as they lose the Heart the world has chosen, thus why it remains with the Heartless. I suppose the same could be said for the Keyblade, but as stated that's arbitrary due to difficulty.


My reasoning for why they have two elements is similar. I didn't think that pure dark beings would have access to as many elements a time as Somebodies would, but I didn't want to limit them like Nobodies. So, I gave them their two primaries and allowed them to, if they so desire, choose the powerful combination elements. For reference, Wildfire is not just the ability to control wildfires. It is literally interpreted as a more powerful Fire element. Meaning, fire magic used with Wildfire is less expensive and more powerful. Other combination elements are so direct damage oriented, such as Smoke or Tide, the second of which is designed as magic that can counter water Magic as well as also being a more powerful form of the Water Element.


Now, in terms of Seekers being limited, I'm not sure how that idea has cropped up. Note my language here:
They can choose three combination elements to be their primaries instead of standard primal or advanced elements

They can is not an equivalent statement to they must. You can choose combination elements. You are not required to choose Combination elements.

Now, this actually brings me into my next point. Last night, we debated letting beta-package members switch into Seekers. The answer: no. Not currently. Seekers are a special kind a creature a person must grow into. Ophelia, Lenny, and Altuo will not become Seekers. However, there is an addendum to this. They can become seekers. If they are destroyed and reunited with their other halves, become whole people again, and they willingly give up their Hearts they can become Seekers.


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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Lenneth on Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:10 pm

Awe dam...that kinda sucks...i think???...(selfish question here since not sure if the other 2 have their nobodies out yet)

So if we died by keyblades and our active nobodies died so we become our somebodies then just become seeker heartless, pretty much un changed from before except for some new key mechanic abilities but keeping our stuff and postions. So then would the nobidez come back the same and all that as well?

I ask cause i did want my nobody to have his own story but now clashing with what i want for my heartlezs

Rest of the heartless mechainez themselves i think work well enough with ur justification and just likly watched in cause of abusive nature like everything else

Would becoming a seeker require an approved story threads by staff? Or can just happen from normal topics?

And like what happens when we become somebodies? Anything change during that tranistion?

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Game Master on Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:05 pm

Essentially? Yes. But in terms of just becoming Seekers, there would need to be a logical transition.

Nobodies would be spawned. Seekers are still Heartless.

However, the somebody spawned from re-merging the two would be only as strong as the Nobody that contains the Heart.

Yes, when you become somebodies you lose the major traits of being a Heartless. During this time period you are once more able to earn Keyblades, and have the standard somebody traits.

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Ophelia on Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:05 pm

Okay sweet... Things are covered in detailed that concerned me so thats cool...

Umm technically my character Ophelia due to history would fall under a seeker i think? As a somebody she succumbed to the darkness bla bla bla. So would i have to become a somebody again to repeat that process or could there be another way? Also which category would she fall under now?

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Lenneth on Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:20 pm

If the somebody is weaker then the heartless when we return as seeker heartless would we return to our old character tier?

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Game Master on Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:45 pm

Unfortunately Ophelia, I can not allow Beta Members to have immediate access to the Prestige Class regardless of History. So, yes, you would need to become a somebody again. There is no other way around it. As for which categoery you fall under: we realize that this change may turn heads, and so edits are going to be ready to create as soon as you select Pureblood or Emblem. However, Emblem would offer you no way to become a Seeker as of current.

For Lenny's question: you would be created as a Seeker of the same tier of the somebody you became. You would essentially lose power and keep your Nobody's stat points on the next split. If you split into a Pureblood Heartless, you could resume from the tier that you originally started as. However, as Seekers are entirely different races they will need to be leveled independently of any previously acquired tiers.

Now, we are also looking at implementing a new ability for Seekers, and an edit to a pre-existing trait. This ability passively adds Symbiotes as a party member, effectively raising a Seeker's total Party to three. This Symbiote will be able to specialize so unlike normal party members, will have one selected stat tier up as the main character tiers up. This Symbiote will be treated as a separate but connected entity, and will be a Pureblood Heartless.

The edit to the trait is an increase to the passive control of Heartless. Seeker Heartless would be treated as effectively two tiers higher when controlling Heartless than a normal entity. Let me give some idea of how powerful this is: at Tier 5, a Somebody With Darkness could call and control a Heartless more powerful than a secret boss passively. A Tier 5 Pureblood could call and control a MegaHeartless from the Sea of Skies passively. A Tier 5 Seeker could call Two MegaHeartless.

A MegaHeartless is somewhere between one-half and twice the size of Monstro.

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Game Master on Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:16 am

For Lenny's question: you would be created as a Seeker of the same tier of the somebody you became. You would essentially lose power and keep your Nobody's stat points on the next split.

The statement means that you keep the stat points. Allocation of stats were never mentioned or discussed in this topic.

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Lenneth on Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:20 am

So we keep the total number of points but can freely distrubte them as we want during the somebody tranistion?

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

Post by Game Master on Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:14 pm

If there is no need for further elaboration and discussion, I can have these resolved and up for use today.

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Re: Take Two: On Heartless (Community Discussion on Mechanics)

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